Karen Kirton   0:00

Welcome to episode 176. And if you’ve listened to this podcast for a while, you know that I talk quite a lot about company values and the role that they play in workplace culture. But having values and actually seeing them influence how people behave are two very different things. In this episode, I’m joined by Hope Collins, and we talk about why values like integrity or respect can be so open to interpretation and what businesses can do to make them much more practical. Hope Collins is a leadership, sales and culture consultant and the creator of The Commitments, which is a behavioural framework designed to be the missing pillar alongside your why, vision and values. Drawing on more than a decade of experience in senior leadership, the framework helps organisations create cultures built on clear expectations, accountability and consistent behaviours. In this conversation, Hope shares her approach to creating the commitments that define behaviour sitting underneath your values so that people actually know what’s expected of them.
And we also talk about why this can make accountability conversations so much easier for managers, the importance of leaders holding themselves to the same standards, and how greater clarity can actually give employees more confidence and freedom at work. So if you have some company values, but you sometimes wonder whether they’re really influencing what happens day-to-day, this episode should give you the answer. 

Karen Kirton   0:04
Welcome Hope. 

Hope Collins   0:25
Thank you so much. I really appreciate you having me on. 

Karen Kirton   0:29
No problems at all. I’m really excited about this conversation because I talk a lot about values and I understand why a lot of business owners and leaders feel like values are a little bit of a waste of time because they might have them, but then they still struggle with accountability or culture issues or inconsistent behaviour.
So, from your perspective, why do you think that happens? 

Hope Collins   0:54
I think it’s because values don’t tell you how to behave and they’re so open to interpretation. So, you know, let’s look at someone like McDonald’s. One of their values is serve, put our customers and our people first. If you’re 15 and you’re on shift and your feet are sore and you might think,
McDonald’s tell me that they put their people first, then I have a sit down in the middle of the restaurant and massage my little tootsies. I’ve had a very hard shift. And the manager may be thinking, hang on, we say it’s about putting the customer first and there’s a long line of customers and you’ve got your feet out in the restaurant. That’s not ideal. So I think that’s the problem is people
always think they’re living the values, they just live them all in very different ways. 

Karen Kirton   1:42
Yeah, and that’s that gap that you talk about, right, between values and behaviour. And, you know, that’s a good example of where that gap can come about. And we see that happen. I’ve spoken before about shadow values, where you actually have values underlying in the organisation that can really be against your current values.
So what are signs that companies values aren’t really influencing how people work together? 

Hope Collins   2:01
Mm.
I think that the sign that they’re not influencing how they work together in a cohesive way is that finger pointing. Is the employees are looking at leadership, thinking they don’t know the values, and then the exact opposite happening in leadership, thinking the employees aren’t living the values. Because I genuinely have never met someone who doesn’t believe that they’re living an organisation’s values. They always have the belief that it’s happening just in very different ways. 

Karen Kirton   2:45
Yeah, so this kind of takes us to the framework that you developed called the commitment. So can you explain that to us? What problem were you trying to solve? 

Hope Collins   2:55
I think it was that problem of clarity, of everyone wanting to do a good job and no one really sure how to go about that. Because I think management is so often disappointing employees and vice versa, but no one really wants that.
And I think once you give that clarity in something like behaviours, then people can see what is expected to them and also of them, and also if they actually want to opt into that expectation. Is this the sort of workplace I want to work in? Because it’s very clear what the behaviours
that I’m going to have to show are. And also, I think then you’re picked up on those behaviours. It’s very easy, because it’s so, so simple to say, you didn’t do, you didn’t demonstrate it, as you can see in this commitment, this is how you demonstrate it, you didn’t do that. And I think it, and allows people to get on the same page really quickly. 

Karen Kirton   3:59
Yeah, so how are commitments different from values and can you give us some examples of what a commitment might look like compared to a traditional value statement? 

Hope Collins   4:08
Yeah, of course. So if you look at something like integrity, which I do think is one of the most confusing, you might have instead of just having integrity, you might have a commitment and the commitment might declare that we are the standard in our work and how we treat each other.
And then you define it. So quality isn’t enforced from the top. It’s held by everyone. The standard doesn’t drop because we’re under pressure, because nobody is watching, or because it would be easier to let something slide. And then you’ve got points of how you demonstrate that. So it might be things like holding yourself to the same standard in every room.
seen or unseen. Speaking up when something falls short of what we agreed or knowing when to step back and reset so you don’t bring energy that pulls others down. And then you draw the line. So you draw the line at waiting for a manager to call something out that everyone already knows isn’t right. You draw the line at choosing speed over standard when the stakes matter.
or treating people below you differently to people above you.
And I think those things are very, it’s very easy to be able to say to someone. For example, when you’re working from home, this is your output. When you’re working in the office, this is your output. If you’re supposed to hold yourself to the same standard in every room seen or unseen, we need to make sure that our standards are the same when we’re working from home, might be an example of that. 

Karen Kirton   5:36
Yeah, and as you were talking, I was thinking of that one, integrity, because I have a bit of a bugbear about the usual values. And I think it’s because when, back in my corporate days, when I was managing, and I remember at least three companies that I worked for had integrity as a value, and so when you’re managing a team and you’re expected to rate them in performance reviews against something like integrity, it’s like, well, what am I going to do? Say, well, no, you don’t have integrity. And how does someone self-rate themselves as I have integrity or I don’t have integrity? 

Karen Kirton   6:16
So I think that idea of actually really digging into what that means makes sense. Would you still say our values integrity or do you just say here’s the commitments that we have? How do you actually practically work that? 

Hope Collins   6:30
I would still have those values because I think it’s something that people are used to and it’s something to work from. It’s that base to work from. And I think also with a value, you can really talk through some of those trickier behaviours, like the commitments won’t cover everything.
But what’s great about values is it opens up a conversation of, you know, someone’s behaviour might, you didn’t feel that they acted in a way that showed integrity. And you can say to them, I don’t feel that that upheld the value, but tell me what your take on it was. And you’re going to learn more about them through that conversation of the values. I think it’s a great jumping point for some of those conversations about how we see the world. 

Karen Kirton   7:22
So do you think that having commitments would make accountability conversations easier? Because there’s a lot of businesses that, you know, always say we need more accountability, but they struggle to actually put it in place. 

Hope Collins   7:36
Yeah, and that’s one of the main reasons that when I built them, I wanted them to be something that you could hold people accountable to. Because that’s the thing that I see in managers when they’re first stepping into the role, into leadership, they find those accountability conversations so difficult. 

Hope Collins   7:56
They find the KPI conversations much easier when it’s a number and when you can point to it. And I think having people on both sides committed to something, it’s so much easier a conversation to have of you committed to this. We’ve got the commitment here in black and white this is, you know, why wasn’t the behaviour what you committed to? I think those conversations are the easiest to have. And I think the values conversations are much harder because the values can be weaponised. But I think when we go into those sorts of conversations that are that people find a little bit more difficult because they’re not black and white. I think if we go in with real curiosity, then we can learn more about someone and still move that conversation forward. But yes, having commitments that are something that you can hold someone accountable to and you can hold yourself accountable to as a new manager is It is as well, I think, very helpful. 

Karen Kirton   9:01
So how did you decide to put this together? What was your experience that led you to creating these commitments? 

Hope Collins   9:10
I think once I had my last role I was in for nearly 14 years, and…
I felt that we’d created a fantastic culture, a culture I was really, really proud of. And so when I was thinking about what is it that I could give to other organisations, how could I sort of impart some of the things that I’d learnt?
That’s when I came up with this idea of having really, really structured behaviours, because…
Even though some of the…
Some of the roles, we had a number of sales roles where there were…
you know, the standard was high. Their expectations were high. But if we have been clear with people, I didn’t have conversations that I dreaded. I wasn’t one of those leaders who said, oh, no, I’m going to, oh, it’s very difficult because the conversations were just conversations that were if you didn’t hit
this or you didn’t behave in this way, everyone knew what the service standards were, what my expectations were. And so they were much easier conversations. And so I think trying to bring that clarity to people was the motivation and also hearing, you know, my friends who I know, they’re great, complain about their workplaces. And my friends in leadership complain about employees and me knowing that people are genuinely good and want to do a good job. And I think it just comes down to clarity. 

Karen Kirton   10:43
Yeah, I think clarity and consistency in the workplace solve a lot of problems. And we’ve also got this legislative environment now around psychosocial risks as well. So how do you think commitments can help workplaces to feel safer and, you know, more inclusive and more respectful? 

Hope Collins   11:02
Yes, yes.
I think, first of all, when people know what’s expected of them, it takes the anxiety down. You know, you’re not in that constant state of what do people want from me? And then I think the other thing is you can build commitments around that creating a
a safer culture and a safer workplace. And I think they are in so many parts of the commitments, but bringing it back to even the one I spoke about before is, you know, we own the standard in our work and how we treat each other, one of them being treating people below you differently to people above you. Something as simple as that.
as you can’t raise your voice at someone or talk to them in a disrespectful manner because you’re not going to talk to someone above you in that way. They should be built into every single commitment and those little things that people can hold on to and say, actually, I’m empowered now as
as an employee to say to my manager, hang on, you didn’t, the way you spoke to me in that meeting wasn’t okay because we own the standard in our work and how we treat each other. Let’s have a look at this together. 

Karen Kirton   12:30
Yeah, I like that, that empowerment of, you know, it’s not just managers holding employees accountable. It’s, it needs to be the other way. And you mentioned, you know, that sort of improving culture. So and like you said, people want to go to work and do a good job. And I think most business owners and leaders want to create a good culture, but it doesn’t always work. So what’s the biggest mistakes that you’ve seen organisations and leaders make when they’re trying to improve culture? 

Hope Collins   13:00
I think it’s probably not holding themselves to the same standard that they want to hold other people to. It’s looking, not looking at themselves first. And do I actually live the values? Do I, in every interaction, do I have those values in the back of my mind, in the decision making? Am I leading with those values? Because people will see it. And people will be looking at you through that, the way you’re looking at them, they’re looking at you through that same lens of judging your behaviour. So I think that’s probably the one thing I would say is take a real checklist of yourself and how you’re behaving in the role.
And then when you actually act in those ways, that trickle down effect will have more impact than any amount of words. 

Karen Kirton   13:58
Yeah, I completely agree. And so, you know, if someone’s listening to this and they’re thinking, yeah, you know, our values are probably a bit tired or we actually haven’t articulated them yet, what would be your advice around one sort of practical step that could take over the next month? 

Hope Collins   14:08

I think probably, you know, obviously sitting down and putting, even if it’s not the commitments, putting behaviours to the values. So where you think, let’s take that one value and say, where do I think we’re not meeting the mark? Where are we meeting the mark? And writing down those observable behaviours,
and bringing that language into all of the conversations that you’re having around performance. Coaching one-to-ones, whether it be the positive or the negative, making sure you’re talking about how it aligns back to those values. 

Karen Kirton   14:54
Yeah. And if someone’s thinking, oh, I don’t know if it’s worth it, paint us the picture. What does a workplace look like and feel like when people really understand what the organisation believes and what everyone’s committed to doing? 

Hope Collins   15:10
I think it is probably around confidence and freedom are the two sort of words I would say that that sort of, to me, are what it looks like, because people have the confidence to behave in a way that they know is what’s expected of them. But that also brings freedom.
because you know, once there’s structure, once you know how to do a good job, once you know what’s expected, I think you’re also free to be your whole complete self because you’re not thinking what parts of me don’t they want to see, what parts of me could be problematic there. Because you know,
you know the boundaries, you know where those behaviours are and you also know that you can speak up when someone else isn’t meeting that commitment. So yeah, I would say that confidence and that freedom and you don’t need to, I think sometimes people think micromanagement
is when there is a lot of structure in place. But I think that brings so much freedom to people when they know the structure and they know how to succeed.
To me, that’s freedom. 

Karen Kirton   16:22
Yeah, it’s a good point. When I see micromanagement happening, it’s generally because there’s a lack of structure. And so people don’t know what they’re expected to do, and they think they’re expected to do A, the manager thinks it’s B, and so then that’s where micromanagement normally, unfortunately, can bridge that gap. 

Hope Collins   16:27
Yeah, and I think it’s the upfront work that’s always hard. In leadership, you never find in time where you go, oh, I’ve got windows of time here. So I think that’s the big problem is saying, well, I’m going to make the time to do this now, even though there’s all of these competing priorities.
because it will free up time for you in the long run. It will give you space, it will improve performance, but you have to invest in it, invest the time to actually build the structure, and then invest the time to actually make sure that the structure is being held to. 

Karen Kirton   17:18
Absolutely. Now, thank you for this discussion. I love talking about values and things that we can do in the workplace to make it more positive. A question I like asking everybody is, what is one thing that you wish that you knew earlier about running a business or leading a team? 

Hope Collins   17:37
That putting off tough conversations does not make them easier. The amount of times I spent hoping that behaviour would change so that if I scheduled that conversation to a week later, that maybe I wouldn’t need to have it. I think you always need to prepare for those conversations, but waiting only makes you more anxious. it feels so much bigger. And then by the time you’ve got the, you’re actually at the conversation, your anxiety often is bleeding into it. And then you’re making the person who’s there anxious and the whole thing can become much bigger than it needs to be. Whereas if you just, you know, you have to have a tough conversation, plan it, have it. And move on. 

Karen Kirton   18:26
Yep, great advice. I think just hoping and waiting is not a plan. 

Hope Collins   18:26
No.
Yeah, and worrying, you know. I worked with someone who told me worrying is like a rocking chair. You move back and forth, but you get nowhere.  

Karen Kirton   18:42
I love it. Never heard that one before.
Thank you so much, Hope. How can people best get in touch with you and obviously put links within the show notes as well? 

Hope Collins   18:56
Yeah, LinkedIn, e-mail me, but LinkedIn is probably the best place. 

Karen Kirton   19:03
Excellent. Well, thank you so much for joining. I’ve really enjoyed the conversation. And for those who are listening, if you’ve received value from this episode, I’d love it if you can leave a rating or a review of Apple Podcasts or Spotify so someone else can find the episodes to help with their business. Episodes released on Mondays, so click subscribe and you’ll be notified.
of when it’s available. As always, if you have any feedback, questions, or ideas for future episodes, head on over to amplifyhr.com.au or connect with me on LinkedIn and we can start a conversation. Thanks so much, Hope. 

Hope Collins   19:34
Thanks, Karen.