Episode 178 

Karen Kirton   0:18, Welcome, Jess. 

Jess Jasch   0:26
Thank you. Happy to be back. 

Karen Kirton   0:28
Yes, it’s so great to have the opportunity to have another conversation with you. And the last time we spoke, we were discussing stress and wellbeing. And you briefly mentioned how it can be even more challenging to lead when you’re a neurodivergent leader. So for someone who may not have thought about this before,
What can you tell us about what does leading as an autistic and ADHD person actually look like day-to-day? 

Jess Jasch   0:55
Oh man, I’m going to try as usual to try and keep this like really concise because it’s not a straightforward one-to-one answer either, but I think that’s part of the answer, at least in the 1st place, is to not assume that the cookie cutter fits everyone, even yourself. And I think that’s something that I’ve really learned in my own career journey is learning, you know, where I burn out a bit quicker and environments in which I can manage and support myself in different ways that might look a little bit different than what is expected in the traditional, you know, kind of corporate space. But I think as a neurodivergent leader, I can only speak to autism and ADHD and obviously only my experience of those two, but neurodivergency goes into other areas as well, but at least in those two areas for me, what it has really meant is  

actually kind of advocating for myself, sometimes to myself. And sometimes like, you know, not trying to fit myself into the box. You know, there’s things you have to do all the time, sure, but not try to just fit into the box and then wonder why I’m not, you know, thriving as well when I can actually do a better job in the same environment, you know, like with certain things. So that’s on the very personal level, but then I think in leadership, like any kind of leadership anyway, but in particular, it is that recognition of, well, if I have these needs in terms of my wellbeing and how I take care of myself or how I need to kind of, like, it’s not always set in stone either. Like it might work for, you know, this week and then something like a season shifts or something shifts and you’re like, this is what I need now. But if I’m aware that I have those needs, then it helps me cheque in with team members or people around me, even peers or whoever it is, even like uplines in the past, like, you know, where I’m like, well, let me cheque in with them because I’m aware of that. And regardless if someone is or isn’t autistic or ADHD or whatever, I just happen to find them a lot more. But regardless of whether they are or aren’t, it’s still a good way to kind of approach really bringing that sense of well-being and mindfulness into the workplace, generally speaking, because then you can actually cheque in and go,  

Do you need, and it might be something different, and or it might be same same, like you might have like samesies, and then you might have different things, or they might just be like, I just wanna show up to the office because they’re very neurotypical and they love that, or whatever it is, so it just really, I think it allows more of a rich conversation in terms of needs and actually getting to help people and support people to thrive and succeed in their role.
by opening up or leading with that, that awareness and, you know, even modelling some of that behaviour too. 

Karen Kirton   3:56
Yeah, I think there’s two things as you were talking. You know, one is the work by Kristen Neff when she talks about self-compassion. And so, you know, when you were saying that, like, sometimes it’s just like being kind to yourself as well, really made me think of that because we are, you know, we’re terrible to ourselves, that internal monologue that says, you know, you’re an idiot, what did you do that for? Whereas we would never say that. 

Jess Jasch   4:02
Yeah. 

Karen Kirton   4:18
To A colleague or a friend, because of course you’re not being an idiot, and it’s fine that you did that thing, so yeah. 

Jess Jasch   4:19
Yeah, it’s like, oh, I’m happy I know. Whereas like, yeah, every damn day it’s like, oh, wait, okay, this is fine. Remember it’s fine. Oh, okay, it’s fine. 

Karen Kirton   4:30
Yeah, So I think, you know, that’s, I think that was a really important point and was something that people can really reflect on and think about. And the other one was, yeah, like, you know, autism and ADHD, you know, they do, you know, demonstrate differently in different people, you know, people process things in different ways. You know, with autism, it’s called a spectrum for a reason. And, you know, and I have certainly seen this in workplaces where people will label without really understanding. So what would be your advice for those that are leading someone who’s potentially autistic or ADHD? You know, what would you say to them in terms of, you know, putting that judgement aside and really starting those conversations? 

Jess Jasch   5:04
Yeah.
Well, like there’s at least two, maybe more parts to that. I think part of it is education because we are, you know, like we’re learning a lot more, which is why people are recognising it more in themselves and then able to get diagnosed, things like that, you know. So there’s an education piece, like with anything, but I think beyond that,  

It’s really, and I know in workplaces, you know, people like, we’re not, as leaders, we’re not entitled to that, like, you know, that to be divulged to us either. And sometimes it is, and sometimes it isn’t. So I think, and I can’t quote any research, but I did hear, so it sounds a little bit like hearsay, but it makes sense to my brain as well. So I kind of approach work and environments and like wherever it is with this thing that I had where it’s when we approach everything to create
accommodations or conversations that are neurodivergent friendly, then everyone thrives, regardless of whether they are neurodivergent or not, you know, rather than just focusing on neurotypical kind of styles of language or communication where it still cuts out a whole bunch of people, whether we know about it or not. So I think in terms of approaching it as a leader and wanting to kind of have those conversations, it doesn’t actually have to be about any diagnosis. I think it, and that can be helpful if that is something that someone wants to share. I also work in disability spaces too, where, you know, it’s helpful to kind of name things. 

But beyond that, I think it’s really just approaching it from that.
that conversation and that communication of…
you know, to really simplify it, what is it that you need to succeed in your role? Or what kind of style of communication works best for you? You know, so for me, I like instructions written down. I like to talk through things, but like it’s helpful to have it written down, whatever the thing is, and then have the conversation and  

get context, but also like work anything out that needs to be worked out. But if there’s like a set, you know, just as an example, if there’s set things to do, I like that written down or questions. I like them written down because there’s a processing kind of difference sometimes, you know, like depending on the day, but like, you know, sometimes. So it’s just helpful for me to reference back because I can remember generally, but sometimes specifics  are a little harder for me, for example. So, you know, I could go into a workplace if I wasn’t the leader and explain that to my leader and go, actually, like, I work really well this way. If you, if we can just make sure that things are, you know, sent in e-mail as well, happy to have discussions, but sent an e-mail, that’s gonna really help me. So It’s a bit of like the, it’s a bit of both. It’s a, the leader needs to open up and actually genuinely be open to.
accommodating, you know, regardless of whether there is a diagnosis or not, just actually asking and then providing in those certain ways. And then by asking, I also think that it also brings the person involved into the responsibility of thinking about, well, what do I need? And this is useful for performance anyway, right? Regardless, it’s like that person needs to be involved in their own success, you know? So I think it’s just really like anything I talk about comes down to communication. I think we’ve said that before too. Yeah, I think it just comes down to communication, but  not just relying on what might necessarily feel easiest to you. And that is the job of the leader. And, you know, it makes it a bit more challenging, but at the same time, it is what can set up the culture and the environment for more success because people are able to perform more because they feel heard and they’ve got what they need or, you know, they they understand things because things are said in a certain way, or even, you know, the whole, if you’re a leader, and this strikes personally to me too in general, but like, you know, if you’re a leader, don’t just message someone and go, hey, can we talk? Or have you got, you know, like give them a little bit of context. 

Karen Kirton   9:38
Yeah.
To give some context. 

Jess Jasch   9:42
Yeah, just like, there’s no problem, but just give them a little like, hey, can we talk? And then like, no stress or, you know, like a little bit of context about the topic, you know, just so someone doesn’t spiral and go, oh, something’s wrong or feel unprepared in terms of being able to actually show up. Because it’s not just about the spiral, it can be about the, well I just need to mentally kind of get my brain in that mode, you know. So yeah, I think it’s a lot of those sorts of things. 

Karen Kirton   10:06
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah, because I think that’s the thing for leadership, right, that you’ve got to be adaptive and actually manoeuvre things to other people and not just to yourself. And it sounds simple, but it’s actually quite a skill for people to learn as well. 

Jess Jasch   10:18
Yeah. It is, it is exactly, it’s a skill. And sometimes, you know, people might be like, why can’t I just, you know, and I understand because we’re still human, but at the same time, it is the job of the leader. Like that is the job. So, yeah, so you. 

Karen Kirton   10:33
Yes. to do that. So while we’re talking about the job of the leader, you know, there’s a lot of strong assumptions out there about what good leadership looks like in terms of how people communicate or make decisions or run meetings. So which of those expectations do you think? I know it’s from your own experience, but also just working with other leaders, you know, are there certain expectations out there on leadership that make it harder for neurodivergent leaders? 

Jess Jasch   11:01
Yes, that is a great question. That’s the answer. Yes, there you go. No, it is. I think there are expectations because, and I know a lot of workplaces are doing a lot better in terms of allowing more flexibility. I mean, I could pick an example 

Karen Kirton   11:10
Yeah.
That’s just the answer, yes.
 

Jess Jasch   11:28
And it’s going to be very, like, it can be inflammatory to some people, but like, it’s, you know, something you see on LinkedIn all the time is about the return to the office kind of policy. And this is just, it’s a very specific example, you know, so I’m not saying broadly, there’s no blanket statement of exactly what is right, but that’s the point, I think. Like, so as a neurodivergent leader, sometimes, let me put it this way, sometimes we try to make ourselves available to people all the time, whether that is in the office constantly. So we might not be sort of taking care of or being aware of our needs in terms of what that office environment is, how that’s affecting us, or, you know, what that rush is like or whatever it is, right? So for me, I get really drained by fluorescent lights, just as an example. So like,
I get headaches. So just something like that, when we put that pressure on ourselves and put our needs aside entirely to show up and be constantly available, it’s not actually serving other people. And it’s also diminishing our ability to show up. So it’s almost like in that case, it
it’s important to still block out time that is for focus, you know, so whether that is in a physical location or just in terms of your calendar or whatever it is, that’s just something that’s coming to mind, which is, yeah, I need to make sure that I have focus time where it is, because there’s an element of dopamine at play with ADHD in particular, where I need the reward of being able to hyperfixate and actually feel like I’m progressing. And I know that’s not always easy in leadership, but that’s why it almost needs to be more protected because leadership happens by leading, but we also need time to process or think or plan or strategize or, you know, do all of the things as well.
And we need to find more of that balance. So, you know, that’s a very sort of niche me example in that sense, but you know, things like that where you need to kind of.  

Instead of the pressure of the leader, the traditional leader who comes in really early, stays really late, is in the same environment and, you know, like just is operating in that certain way that can work for some people. But some people, some leaders actually that I know that I’ve worked with are ADHD and they’ve found that they actually are more efficient with less hours in the week for example, you know, so like they really narrowed in and chosen when their contact hours are and then when they’re focusing on non, like I guess non-contact hours with the team, for example. But instead of trying to fill up 10 hour days, five days a week, they operated on.  

What if I just do 4 full like 8 hour days or whatever, and that then plus the commute to and from, but then have a day off. So it’s a four day week. For example, you know, and again, like we said earlier, everyone’s going to be different, but just. 

Jess Jasch   14:35
It’s that process of being aware and learning and actually recognising what, in this case, what is actually efficient in helping my performance versus what are the optics that don’t actually mean anything if my performance, you know, like is suffering and then my health and well-being is suffering. 

Karen Kirton   14:45
Yeah, yeah, and I think that’s, you know, one of the things I was thinking about as you were talking, especially with like the dopamine hit requirement for ADHDs. You know, it can be small things as well that I was saying, like just giving people like, you know, yoga balls to sit on so that they’ve got movement can actually make it difference, but you know, like you say, it’s kind of understand that in yourself and then feeling safe enough to ask for that as well. Yeah. 

Jess Jasch   15:16
Yeah, it’s exactly, I’m sitting in it, I call it my ADHD chair because it’s, I think on the internet it’s called that, like I can, I’m crossing my legs because it’s got enough space, you know, so it’s one of those chairs where I can have my legs down, like, and I know that’s not ergonomic, but I don’t know what to do, like, I’m doing my best. 

Yeah. But that safety piece is also important. And as leaders, I think the beauty of being in leadership is even if it feels a little scary sometimes to kind of buck tradition, even in little ways, I think the beauty of being in leadership is you do have that position of power that can be used for good. You know, so you can influence just by modeling. So you create more safety in that sense or security for people to ask for something that they might need that’s, you know, reasonable. Like, but you create that by modelling that for your own self  

just in front of people as well. So that’s where the ripple effect really comes from leadership in any aspect, but especially in this way is like if you are a neurodivergent leader and you have certain things and you or the company or the whatever is able to, you know, financially afford that, like a chair for example, whatever it is, like you said, or yoga ball, whatever that is needed then opening that up, like creates that sense of safety and security for other team members to have that choice too, and not to feel like an outlier. 

Karen Kirton   16:52
Yeah, and I think, yeah, the conversation has moved a lot over the last five, 10, 15, 20 years and understanding of what’s going on, because, you know, I think that in the past there was a lot of stereotypes and conversation about the challenges of having neurodivergent people in your team, but you know, we know that people that take more of an affirming view will actually say, well, yes, there might be some challenges in terms of it’s not what you’re used to seeing, but there’s actually a lot of strengths here as well. So are there any particular strengths that you think people might overlook or misunderstand when it comes to neurodivergent leaders. 

Jess Jasch   17:36
I think so. I mean, I know a lot of people say like, oh, it’s a superpower. And I do want to remind us all, like, it can feel like a superpower sometimes. Like, yes, each and again, each experience is very subjective, but it is a disability. Like, and it will impact people more or less. Yes. Like there’s a scale there too, but it is still a disability. So I think we need to, I don’t know, I for me there is that sort of awareness of if we do blanket it as a superpower, then we do risk just sort of assuming that people are just functioning very easily without their own accommodations going on in their head. But at the same time, I think there is a lot about it that, you know, is really useful. I mean, If Like we, and my lens, obviously, as we know, is very much wellbeing as well, but I even think about the hours spent, you know, you could get the same salary, but if people are thriving more by spending five hours of focused time a day and getting the same, like the required amount of work done, amount of work done or the same amount of work done, that happens in an all eight hour day. It’s not that you like pay less, but you’re still getting the same result. And then everyone has a lot more health and well-being and energy. And, you know, it reduces absenteeism and turnover because people are working in a way and still performing in the way that’s required. Just in that example, you know, so there’s certain ways that I know some business owners or leaders, not any we know, but you know, like some business owners or leaders might be like, well, no, I want them and you know, like butts in seats. And I just think that it’s where that’s to a detriment. And I know it might not seem like I’m using this very specific example, but I know it may not seem like adjusting the hours in that way does benefit the business, but it truly does when it makes everyone healthier and more satisfied, but also like they have that satisfaction of still doing a job well done. So there’s different ways to approach it there. I think there’s something in, again, communication, there’s a, there’s sometimes a directness or a flavour or like whether it’s direct, because again, autism and ADHD sometimes will fight inside of you. Sometimes directness is so easy. And then sometimes you’re like, words are all over the place for me at least. But again, I think there’s something really useful in directness and actually saying the thing, obviously saying it respectfully, you know, I’m not saying do anything otherwise, but you know, like appreciating that directness and saying the thing can help with efficiency. Just from my own experience of pointing out something can actually help with efficiency, even if people want to bury their head in the sand or likewise, you know, being able to talk through and see different perspectives and different angles because there’s a lot of colour in the words that are coming through rather than directness, for example, but there’s a bit more of like a body to it can actually help with different perspectives. And again, I’m being very specific to my experience or experiences I’ve witnessed.
but those can be really useful things if they are embraced, you know, and sometimes you’ve got to kind of, as a leader too, you can, and I do this for myself and for others, you know, if you’re aware someone’s ADHD and they can get on a tangent, which can happen, and it’s not, you know, like,
that’s where you get comfortable of like learning each other’s language and going, I’m going to bring you back in, you know, I’m going to bring you back in or whatever. But yeah, I think it gets to be a real collaborative relationship if you work together and if there is that mutual sense of obviously respect, but also security in trust and, you know, like trust in each other and trust in the process of being in that collaboration together that would allow for more richness in some of those conversations or experiences. 

Karen Kirton   21:30
Yes.
Yeah, and I think, you know, as you said, it always comes back to communication because that, you know, does build trust and, you know, all of those wonderful things. But, you know, we talked about briefly in the last episode around masking, which, you know, is quite common. So, you know, what what could masking look like for a leader? What is the cost when someone feels like they have to keep this mask on and not show their real self to be able to be seen as credible or capable in the workplace? 

Jess Jasch   22:18
I’m going to speak to this one from a very personal level, because it’s something I still struggle a little bit less and less, obviously, but still struggle a little bit with is for me, the cost is burnout. Like I go home and then I have to, I spend my time like, you know, in the past and it’s not anyone’s fault as such, but it’s just sometimes environments, but I’ll have to go home from wherever it was and switch off, you know, where whatever, but, and spend my downtime in active recovery, not just actually, you know, so I can’t really enjoy my downtime. I remember years ago when I was still working full-time as an employee, being and like I’d get to Friday and I and I’d be exhausted. And you know, I wouldn’t actually get to enjoy my weekend because I was just trying to recover and spending each. So that was something that I really recognised and I fought a long time against like, you know, and even sometimes it still creeps in where I’m like, oh no, like It doesn’t have to be that way for me because it’s detrimental to me. So I think as a leader or anyone, but as a leader, really being aware of…
when it’s useful masking and that’s different to professionalism, I want to point out. And it’s hard to say what the difference is because each person is different, but it is different. But I think it’s, yeah, being really aware of How you feel and your energy levels and what is detrimental, because that makes it harder to show up for work and do the thing where you might have a shorter, like shorter patience levels or smaller window of tolerance or whatever it is, but really, you know, recognising that masking, not professionalism, but masking when it’s not needed or not useful, or if you’re in environments that you feel forced to do have an impact that can impact, you know, not just how you feel, which should be important enough as it is, but also then your career trajectory, because do you have to take time out? Do you have to choose different roles and not all of those things, even if you become aware of it, unnecessarily things that can be changed in a moment, even from one conversation. Like, because people are people, you might have to kind of creep in that, like those little bits and go, this is what I’m learning about myself, but, you know, so this is what I’m starting to do and kind of allow people to get used to it and come on the journey with you rather than just showing up unmasked one day. And people are like, whoa. Yeah. So, you know, there might be a process to support you and others in that. But yeah, just being really kind of 

Karen Kirton   24:49
Yeah.
I’m bringing my whole self today.
 

Jess Jasch   25:09
Recognizing.
At first, I think it’s an awareness thing, like anything, a self-awareness thing first is recognising when it’s happening 1st and then assessing it from there because each one is going to be different. Each environment is going to be a little bit different or require different things. 

Karen Kirton   25:18

Yeah. And I think, you know, it is difficult as a leader because like you say, that that active recovery, like that’s often not seen by people. So, so they just see, you know, Jess doing this particular thing, but they don’t actually see the cost and the toll there. So it’s a good thing for people to sort of reflect on and go, okay, like just because that person seems okay, it doesn’t mean that actually, it’s not having a price. 

Jess Jasch   25:49
There’s something I want to add on to exactly that. That’s a very good point, because, you know, and this is something I’ve suffered, and I’m going to use that word very intentionally, I’ve suffered from as well, which is, oh, Jess can handle that because she’s handling it. It’s like, oh, you don’t know all of the systems that I’ve got in my head or things, whatever, that I’ve put into place just to handle this. Or maybe I’m not handling it, but I’m masking because, you know, I’m late diagnosed. So, you know, I was one of those ones that in school, I was the… you know, the really good grades. You didn’t need to worry about her. And like, I don’t know, I’ve just done a master’s degree and written a book at the same time. So like, it’s still present. Like it’s a bit of a, you could look at that and go, oh, wow. It’s like, oh, no. Like, yay, but no, you know, so recognising that just because someone seems like they’re capable and handling it doesn’t mean that. they need more added to their plate because they’re the person who can handle it, or it doesn’t mean that they don’t need the check-in of going, what is actually required for you to handle this? Because sometimes it’s a lot more than what it looks like. 

Karen Kirton   26:46
Yeah, yeah, great point. Now, since we last met, you just mentioned it, you completed a masters, so congratulations, and decided what a great idea it would be to do that at the same time as writing a book. So  can you quickly describe for us the book, what it’s called, it’s just been released a couple of weeks ago, what could people get from it if they picked that up? 

Jess Jasch   27:19

Yeah, thank you. So it’s freshly out. It’s called Leaders Who Thrive, a Mindful Antidote to Disconnected Teams. And essentially it’s about mindfulness and emotional intelligence in leadership in the workplace. So it blends, you know, some research and things around research that support it with really real life contextual applied
living, you know, living examples of what it’s like. So it gives a little bit of that. It defines what the two are, because sometimes we have a little bit of a misunderstanding of it. But then it gives context for people, whether you are, you know, freshly out of uni and or just starting your career, or you are already a leader and you just really
like even if you are already quite mindful or emotionally intelligent, you know, but really want to solidify some foundations around why or are just interested in it. It’s a really useful, I was going to say guide. Yes, guide, but it’s not like points of exactly this, but it’s a really useful reminder in learning and education and exploration of the little areas that
you know, we can practise these things in, you know, in challenges or how we can reflect on things and really use those skills to help support leaders individually. But then, like anything with my work, how it impacts the system in which everyone exists. So the culture, you know, the ripple down effect that is really just as important as the individual. So yeah. 

Karen Kirton   28:54
Excellent, very exciting. And so, you know, we’re coming to the end of the episode. You know, I always ask the same question, but actually I’m going to ask it slightly differently, which is what is one thing you wish you knew earlier about writing a book? 

Jess Jasch   28:56
Yeah, thank you.
You know, okay, so my autistic brain went in as prepared as I could, but there were certain things working with my publisher who were great, but and they were really good at communicating at the time, but I didn’t know the list ahead of time of like exactly, but I think. On a more personal level, with…
Writing a book.
I don’t know if it’s, I wish I knew earlier, but it’s because I don’t know you can, if you can know earlier, but I just made the decision and then I made the commitment, obviously. So then I had to do it. So that’s what made it work. But I think for me is how satisfying it feels on this end. things like that. I got to choose them, but there was a vulnerability because it was like this. Oh, someone’s reading my words. Like the book, I reference personal things, but it’s not overly personal. It’s not a memoir or anything, you know? So it’s not like, but it was like, oh, what if I’m bad? And I think that’s always going to be there, but I think it’s just really I wish this feeling for everyone of that sense of pride in themselves. And it doesn’t have to be a big thing like writing a book, but a sense of pride in yourself of, oh, I really did work through some really hard times during that process professionally in every aspect. And I really
did sacrifice a fair bit, but also, yeah, I really did go through the fires of Mordor to do this, but I really just believed in it and I really just allowed myself to be dedicated to it for my, not greater good, but for my future good. And then that feeling of pride that comes in this stage at least of, oh wow.
I actually did all of that work and now there’s a physical, you know, a physical proof. And we don’t always need physical proof, I know, but it’s nice to have. I’m not going to lie. So I think it’s, yeah, I know it’s not a thing I could know beforehand, but it’s a feeling I do wish for everyone. And now that I do know that feeling, I feel like we gotta have something after all that, yeah.
 

Jess Jasch   31:54
It’s not necessarily going to make everything easy, but I think it’s going to make it easier even still for me to then approach any new project that I have on that kind of scale and use that as a reminder of it’s going to be hard and it might be hard in really unexpected ways and it might be easy and really expected and unexpected ways, but… I know the feeling of satisfaction and pride I’m going to feel in myself and just accomplishment. And those are some things that are important in life, but not everything. But you can create that for yourself. So I just, yeah, I wish that feeling for everyone in whatever flavour that comes for them. 

Karen Kirton   32:36
Nice. Thank you. Well, I loved speaking with you again. We’ll put the links to everything so we can get in touch with you. Is there one method that’s better? The website, LinkedIn, what would you prefer? 

Jess Jasch   32:38.
Yeah, so I have a website for the book. They can get in touch on LinkedIn anytime. It’s just Jess Jash, just connect, reach out, whatever. I’m there, I’m present. But for the book, I’ve got all the links. At the moment, it’s all online locations, but I do believe it’s going, well, it is going to be in certain bookstores. So I’ll have all the links in one place on the website and that’s https://jessicajasch.com/  

Karen Kirton   33:10

Awesome. Thank you. Thank you so much. And for those that are listening, if you’ve received value from this episode, please go and buy Jess’s book!. But also, I would love it if you could leave a rating or review over Apple Podcasts or Spotify so someone else can also find the episodes to help with their business. Episodes are released on Monday, so click subscribe and you’ll be notified of when it’s available. As always, if you have any feedback, questions or ideas for future episodes, head on over to Amplify HR.com.au or connect with me on LinkedIn and we can start a conversation. Thank you so much, Jess. 

Jess Jasch   33:46
Thank you.